This was great. I do need to commend Pastor Jeff and his lovely wife Joy for having such a frank, honest, and fair discussion about the differences between our two faiths. I really enjoyed this video. I also believe his wife is very much like him ideologically and compliments him well in his videos.
The part I wanted to talk about is at about the [00:8:55] mark. They start to talk about the differences between our beliefs in the Garden of Eden. In one way it is so surprising to me, in other ways, it is not.
EVANGELICALS BELEIVE: They believe that the Garden of Eden was one of the most tragic events ever to take place on Earth. They go on to explain that God did not expect Adam and Eve to sin. Because they did, God had to create a rescue plan to save Adam and Even and that is where Jesus stepped in. The Garden of Eden was supposed to be the abode for God’s children and Adam and Eve basically ruined it. (I’m paraphrasing a bit)
As a side note: Pastor Jeff replied to a comment I made on his video questioning this very thing. He said that God did know Adam and Eve would fall. I will say, that I probably should take some time to figure out what their beliefs actually are. The way Pastor Jeff explained them in the video seemed totally plausible and in line with how he detailed them in the video. However, their beliefs at the same time feel obscure and mysterious in a way. Kind of like the Trinity. Three people in one, all being the same person. The idea that God knew, but the messed up God’s plan. I guess I just don’t see how it could be as tragic as they expressed if God knew it would happen and it was part of his plan. We would have never lived in the garden. And if we did, and she didn’t eat the fruit, surely there would be someone who would come along and eat the fruit.
LATTER DAY SAINTS BELIEVE: We believe that we are all the spirit offspring of God. God had a plan for us to each be tested. We would each go to earth and receive a body. We would each sin. Jesus Christ would come and sacrifice himself so that we could be made clean and return to God. The pivotal point in all of this was the Garden of Eden. A situation had to be created in which Adam and Even would disobey God’s commandments thereby bringing sin into the world. In other words, it was all planned, even the sin committed by Adam and Eve.
I was listening to pastor Jeff describe God rushing to come up with a plan and then sending Jesus as a rescuer. As I listened to him explain it, I couldn’t help but see how problematic that line of thinking was to so many of Pastor Jeff’s beliefs. But then again, maybe it is the lens in which you see things through.
- God makes himself a mortal and sends himself down? That seems odd. But if Jesus, God, and the Holy Ghost are the same being, that could be what he did. Then who is in Heaven running the place?
- If God is all-knowing how did he not know that Adam and Eve would sin? If God knew everything from bringing to end, the sin would have been known to God. And the sacrifice would have been prepared in advance.
- If God didn’t know the beginning, how would he know the end? How would prophecy be planned and fulfilled? If he could not even predict the original sin?
- If God did not expect Adam and Eve to sin, then God is not all-knowing and is not perfect.
The answers are in LDS theology. God did know the beginning from the end. God knew Adam and Eve would sin. This was part of the plan. Jesus Christ was prepared and ordained from the foundation of the world. Through his sacrifice, he rescues us from sin. His sacrifice was not a last-ditch effort to rescue us because of a failed plan by God.
An eternal sacrifice that would save all of God’s children would take preparation and planning.
1 Peter 1:19-20
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1 Peter 1 (churchofjesuschrist.org)
Latter-day scripture helps reveal the more of the story:
Abraham 3:27-28
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.
Abraham 3 (churchofjesuschrist.org)
Moses 4:1-2
1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
Moses 4 (churchofjesuschrist.org)
Doctrin and Covenants 29:36-39
36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;
37 And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels;
38 And, behold, there is a place prepared for them from the beginning, which place is hell.
39 And it must needs be that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves; for if they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet
Doctrine and Covenants 29 (churchofjesuschrist.org)
Doctrine and Covenants 76:25-29
25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,
26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!
28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—
29 Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.
Doctrine and Covenants 76 (churchofjesuschrist.org)
Isaiah 14:12-15
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isaiah 14 (churchofjesuschrist.org)
John 7:18
18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
John 7 (churchofjesuschrist.org)
So many people online make this a debate about being a God or creating your own planet. It isn’t that. The wonderful and most important part of this story is that God created a plan for his children to receive a body, be tested to see if we would obey the commandments of God, be redeemed from the fall, and return to our Father. Obey the commandments of God. That is what Abraham did. Most of our eternal blessings are part of the Abrahamic Covenant. And God blessed Abraham because God knew that Abraham would not withhold anything from Him.
Genesis 22:2-18
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.
15 ¶ And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Genesis 22 (churchofjesuschrist.org)
“I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the haven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore;” To me, those blessings feel infinite and celestial.