I feel like all I do is review Hello Saints videos with Pastor Jeff. That is OK. I really liked this one. I am not familiar with the guy in the video, David Butler. I think he did well representing the church and the doctrine. It did seem at times he tried to set a topic aside. But honestly, in some cases does it matter? This whole video is what people have argued over for centuries. Who is saved and who is going to hell? What is heaven and hell?
In the end, I’m not sure it really matters what we perceive them to be. We will all likely find out that our finite minds are unable to comprehend the true vastness and splendor of the eternities. I know as I have tried, I often hit roadblocks because I think of those things with worldly limitations. I do not believe there are limitations on God. On the flip side, I see the wonders of the heavens. We have been so blessed as a society to see the works of God beyond our heaven and earth. Who could have imagined when God said that his works were limitless that he truly meant it.
It is staggering. I was looking around and found a question that had been asked on Quora: How many Webb deep field images would it take to capture the entire sky? Every question and answer seemed to take a slightly different look at the question, but the overall verdict is the universe is vast and to see a deep field image of all of it would take thousands of years to produce. The number of creations that could be viewed would be staggering. Consider the Milky Way galaxy and how many stars makeup that one galaxy. Then consider how many planets, moons, and objects may be circling every one of those stars. Then consider one deep field image of the sky the size of a grain of sand containing thousands of galaxies like the Milky Way. The number is innumerable.
So, onto the video… and as a reminder. I am no scholar. I am no authority on this topic. I just like talking about this stuff. I found the topic fascinating. But my opinion is my opinion.
What is heaven? I liked what David said. He lays out a foundation of things that are referred to as heaven. Where we were before life, where we are going after, and even situations on earth are considered heaven. In the end, there is a relationship aspect to what heaven is. It’s not just a place. Pastor Jeff refers to it as relational bliss.
Will heaven be white clouds? Maybe? But it is more about where we are and who is there with us.
Interestingly, David brings up the LDS temple ceremonies about the creation and day 7 of the creation when God created man and woman. After the ceremony, you enter the celestial room which is in a sense representative of heaven. But it is also returning to dwell with God in his presence.
2 And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy.
Doctrine and Covenants 130 (churchofjesuschrist.org)
Pastor Jeff, then questions whether this concept of “Same Sociality” is relational to Elder Oaks’s talk on the Three degrees of Glory. Kingdoms of Glory – Dallin H Oaks He references obedience to the laws pertaining to the glory we receive. In other words, we will end up where we are most comfortable. David references that we only have one major revelation on the topic. Doctrine and Covenants Section 76. Well, there is a bit more than that. But, the majority of the teaching is there.
The reoccurring protestant argument came up, you will either go to heaven or hell. Whereas in LDS theology there are degrees of heaven. We teach this, but it is almost all based on the revelations revealed in that one section. Honestly, as I think about it, there are tidbits here are there throughout scripture. However, there is only one truly clear revelation and that is Section 76.
At that point, Pastor Jeff wants to shift the just he Celestial Kingdom as there appears to be more information on that degree of glory. He describes some of the conditions related to faithfulness and obtaining the ordinances.
Is it true that not all the people in the Celestial Kingdom will have the opportunity to progress eternally?
This is where Doctrine and Covenants Section 131 comes in. In this section, the Celestial Kingdom is explained to have 3 heavens or degrees. To enter into the highest level, one must enter into the “new and everlasting covenant of marriage.” This would be where eternal increase comes into play. It continues in Doctrine and Covenants Section 132
4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.
Doctrine and Covenants 132 (churchofjesuschrist.org)
My own thoughts, on this topic circle back to the protestant view of 1) God and 2) Haven and Hell. They teach there is one God. There is no distinction between God the Father and Jesus Christ. They are the same being. They also teach you will be in “heaven” with Jesus Christ and worship him forever… not progressing. There is no knowledge of the Celestial Kingdom or eternal progression.
From my viewpoint, they are teaching truth. They will inherit a kingdom of glory that will be a form of heaven and eternally worship Jesus Christ. But they will not have the glory of the Father. They teach what they will receive. From their viewpoint, they will be in heaven and they will be worshiping God and enjoying his presence in eternal bliss.
But there is more that one can achieve. And if there is more, why would you not seek for those things?
Now, David here seems to bring up that there are disagreements on who will receive eternal progression. I’m not sure that was necessary. It almost seemed as though he was trying to minimize the doctrine and make it appear to not be set in stone. If Doctrine and Covenants 132 is correct, it’s pretty clear. And that all goes back to whether Joseph Smith was really a prophet.
Is it the desire of Latter Day Saints to arrive at the celestial kingdom, so they can progress eternally, so that in their heavenly experience they can become the God of their own planet someday? David squashed this by turning it into a joke on the Book of Mormon Musical or Saturday’s Warrior, who knows? Then he goes into an explanation of God wanting us to become like He is. Then the idea of having children. The scriptures make a statement on the topic but do not expound, so everyone makes their own implication on the topic. There is some truth to this.
I think there is plenty in scripture that backs up the commandment that we should be perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect. In other words, we should become like him.
Now, David goes on to bring up someone saying when I become a God and make my own world, only to have him interject and ask them not to say weird things so they don’t make another musical. But, it caused me to think of the second Guardians of the Galaxy movie. Star Lord’s father is basically a “celestial” being who has the power to create planets, life, and all sorts of stuff. You also learn later he is a monster and also has the power to destroy life. But, isn’t it interesting that so many powers we discuss in LDS theology were apparent in this movie?
Basically, he started as an intelligence, then created his world and created life in search of meaning. It’s clearly all warped and aligns perfectly with the concept of mingling the teachings of man with scripture. At one point, Peter Quil (Star Lord) realizes he has the power of the Gods and expresses that he is going to make some weird stuff.
Clearly, we do not know all things. There are holesY in our understanding.
Heavenly Parents?
Yes, we believe that God is married and exalted. What does heaven look like? It looks like a husband and wife together. But it does not lessen the need for God to be part of that marriage. “Our marriage is doomed to fail because you put two fallen humans together.”
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that all human beings, male and female, are beloved spirit children of heavenly parents, a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother. This understanding is rooted in scriptural and prophetic teachings about the nature of God, our relationship to Deity, and the godly potential of men and women. The doctrine of a Heavenly Mother is a cherished and distinctive belief among Latter-day Saints.
Mother in Heaven (churchofjesuschrist.org)
We are referred to again and again as the children of God. It is my belief that earthly things are patterned after heavenly things.
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Hebrews 8 (churchofjesuschrist.org)
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Hebrews 9 (churchofjesuschrist.org)
13 Consequently, the baptismal font was instituted as a similitude of the grave, and was commanded to be in a place underneath where the living are wont to assemble, to show forth the living and the dead, and that all things may have their likeness, and that they may accord one with another—that which is earthly conforming to that which is heavenly, as Paul hath declared, 1 Corinthians 15:46, 47, and 48:
Doctrine and Covenants 128 (churchofjesuschrist.org)
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1 Corinthians 15 (churchofjesuschrist.org)
Then they get into multiple marriages, polygamy in heaven. I guess the sensationalness with that is again having an earthly mindset with earthly limitations and viewing eternal polygamy with the lustful eyes of the flesh. David is probably correct in that God will not force anyone into a relationship that they do not want to be in.
After this Pastor Jeff goes into an explanation of us being separated from God, along with our redemption and return to God. Clearly, there are stark differences here between his beliefs and the LDS beliefs that were previously discussed.
Pastor Jeff, we don’t know everything but we know it will be exciting and adventurous. David replies by asking him to read the Doctrine and Covenants and it will fill him in. Funny
I’m going to stop there. Anyhow, I really liked the conversation.