This is interesting. I listened to it once. As I listened I knew I needed to respond to it. Pastor Jeff was joined by Pastor Kyle Beshears and the two of them discussed the LDS Articles of Faith and how they relate to protestant beliefs. It was interesting. I couldn’t help but realize the entire time I listened that they needed someone who was LDS guiding the discussion and adding some context. With that said, they made it sound as though Pastor Kyle Beshears had some significant knowledge but ultimately they were both lacking.
I liked that they brought up the concept of a creed. Most religions have creeds that shape the foundation of their beliefs and the LDS Church does not have a creed. The Articles of Faith are the only thing that comes close but they are not a “creed.”
1 -We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. [6:45]
There was an immediate agreement followed by an immediate disagreement naturally. Part of this is because both pastors know that the LDS Church does not believe in the Trinity. They go into explaining the Trinity, but never get into the reasons Latter Day Saints don’t believe in the Trinity.
First of all, the first vision. Joseph Smith saw God the Father and Jesus Christ. Fundamentally, we believe they are two distinctly different beings. [Joseph Smith History 1:17] Second, the Book of Mormon, explains the differences between God the Father and Jesus Christ. That they are one in purpose, not one person. [3 Nephi 11:32] Third, even the bible illustrates that they are different beings when Jesus Christ was baptized. [Matthew 3:13-17]
Without a deeper explanation as to why, they seem to be content to say there are major differences and move on.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression. [8:50]
The two pastors realized while reading this that the statement may have been a reflection of protestant beliefs and teachings at that time. They agreed with the first part that man would be punished for their own sins. But disagree with the statement because they believe in “Original Sin.”
“While it’s true we aren’t punished or Adam’s transgressions we are still punished because of Adam’s transgressions.”
They don’t understand the full Plan of Salvation. They don’t understand that Adam fell that man might be. They don’t understand that had Adam never sinned, they would still NEVER have been born in the Garden of Eden. So naturally, they don’t agree that we are not punished for Adam’s transgression. [2 Nephi 2:22-23] They feel we are continually punished at it’s all Adam’s fault. If he just had not done that, we would not be in this crappy situation. They don’t understand what Adam did, he had to do for us to have this earthly experience. [Moses 5:10-12]
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. [11:03]
This is another one where there was half and half-agreement. Of course, knowing that the atonement of Christ is necessary to all men, was a point of agreement. Obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel was not. There is an agreed centrality of Christ’s role.
The LDS church has a lot more ordinances than everyone else including temple ordinances, and endowments. There is an argument of “by” vs “for” and of course are works needed or not. They reference [Romans 12:1-2]. If I read that, it just isn’t clear. I think there are some differences in interpretation there. They also reference [Ephesians 2:8-10] analyzing the work “by” that if Joseph meant being saved unto or for good works there would be a lot more common ground. It gets to the root of saved by works or faith.
When this floats through my mind, I can’t help by think, ALL MANKIND must be baptized. There is a work that all men must do. it is a small and simple work and that is to enter the waters of baptism and be baptized by one who holds authority. This “work” is required. Whether you have faith or not, it is required of all men. And the Atonement of Christ was all-encompassing enough to pay the price for ALL MANKIND. This is why, if they cannot do it for themselves, we will do it for them. This is part of linking the family of God together. Every man woman and child will be linked first to last from Adam and Eve all the way to the end. In order to link them, they must first be baptized; which is why we perform baptisms for the dead.
We learn in Moses 6 that even Adam was taught about baptism. In 2 Nephi 9 we learn that God commands all men to be baptized or be damned. In John 3:5 we learn that no man can return to God unless they are baptized. As God is a fair and just God, all men will be given the chance to be baptized and return to God. This is done through the priesthood and sealing ordinances which ties back to obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. [13:54]
The two pastors do well recognizing that there is a natural order that this follows. It makes sense that faith proceeds repentance and repentance proceeds baptism. They referred to it as “systematic theology.” Paster Jeff describes it as a comprehensive list of what the bible teaches and how those teachings interconnect. Within that is an order of salvation.
They brought up the term “regeneration” a few times. Wikipedia explains it as “Spiritually, it means that God brings a person to new life (that they are “born again”) from a previous state of separation from God and subjection to the decay of death” [Ephesians 2:5]. Pastor Jeff in explaining the “order or salvation;” does repentance precede regeneration or regeneration precede repentance? Even right there, he excludes the need for baptism by jumping to being “born again” which is not a baptismal process.
They try to get honest here about baptism… even joking about it. “It is widely held across all Christianity, but…” They go on to explain that it is one of the hardest conversations to have because there are so many different views on baptism. God does not intend to confuse his children. He is not the author of confusion [1 Corinthians 14:33]. God’s house is not a house of confusion but rather it is a house of order [D&C 132:8]. [D&C123:7]. [James 3:16]. In the end, there should not be confusion about such an important issue. And the fact that there is confusion is a sign that more guidance is needed. Perhaps additional scripture or a living prophet is needed to clarify the word of God. They talk about not needing anything but the bible, yet they can’t agree on something as simple as baptism.
This is mind-boggling to me. Because there should only be “ONE BAPTISM.”
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof. [17:17]
Interestingly, in all the years I have been an active member, missionary, studying and reading, I have never associated this with 1 Timothy 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. But, sure why not. If it is the true church it would do what is in the bible… so what is this saying? It is saying that when hands were laid upon him, prophecy was given. How would we interpret that today? He was given a blessing and in the blessing, he was promised something through revelation. He was given a blessing by someone holding the priesthood.
This is a very common thing in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. People remember what they were promised in priesthood blessings. People are healed through priesthood blessings. Patriarchal blessings are priesthood blessings.
I think the greatest distinction here is “Priesthood Authority.” the two pastors clearly note that there are only two ordinances, communion and baptism in their churches. The LDS church has many. That is a huge difference. Then there is the line of authority that gives them the power to perform these ordinances. In the LDS Church, that line of authority goes back to God himself. In protestant sects I’m not sure, I do believe it goes back to their education and maybe a committee that gives them that power.
They bring up that “A man must be called of god.” and they agree that through the scriptures that has taken place. They also clearly state that no one can just stand up and say “I’m a leader now because I want to be.” It has to be recognized and affirmed by a local church. In the article “How to become a prodestant pastor” on Chron.com it pretty much confirms that. Take some classes, get a degree, attend seminary, look for a church to preach at, build a reputation, and at some point you will be hired to be a head pastor. Now this seems to be an “ordination” process that involves church leaders and or a governing board. But it is not clear that they need to have authority other than that the run the church or lead the religious organization.
The massively distinct difference with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints it that John the Baptist gave the Aaronic Priesthood and authority to baptize unto Joseph Smith and Peter, James, and Jon gave the the Melchezideck Priesthood to Joseph Smith. No other church claims this. All other churches believe some residue of priesthood authority was passed from person to person since the time of Christ never leaving the earth. Personally, I think the water is pretty muddy between the time that the apostles were all killed and the first pope in the Catholic church was chosen. Wikipedia says that “Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement, Clement by Anacletus, Anacletus by Evaristus…” and the footnote says that succession is validated by St. Augustine; Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]. In other words, there is a 300 to 400-year gap in the succession. In the LDS Church, we believe that the priesthood was lost. There could have been people who believed they retained it and passed it down, but at some point, it was corrupted and lost. Most other churches stem from the Catholic Church.
It is noted that in both LDS and Protestant churches, there are those who go rogue and start their own church. But there was something in the way Pastor Jeff explained it that made me believe he has seen some wild things take place. In the LDS faith, it is very organized. There is a very clear and district method that people are ordained. There are some offices given to the youth in the Aaronic Priesthood. We call it the preparatory priesthood. It teaches the youth how to use the priesthood. It gives them lessons using the priesthood to serve through the priesthood. Later as an adult, there are offices in the Melchizedek priesthood that one can hold. Most are ordained Elders. But if they are called to serve in certain capacities, they are called as High Priests.
- AARONIC PRIESTHOOD (Preparatory Priesthood)
- Deacon
- Teacher
- Priest (Can bless the sacrament and perform Baptisms)
- MELCHIZEDEK PRIESTHOOD (Required to enter the temples)
- Elder (Can give blessings and the Gift of the Holy Ghost)
- High Priest
- Bishop (Leads a Ward / Congregation)
- Stake President (Leads multiple Wards / Congregations)
- High Council
- Patriarch
- Seventy (Area Authority / Leading a region with multiple Stakes)
- Apostle (Hold all the keys)
- Prophet (Holds all the keys)
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth. [20:26]
This is the one that always gets me. Why don’t we use the terms “Pastors” and “Evangelists” if they are listed here. It comes from here:
Ephesians 4:10-12
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
- Primitive Church – The Church in Acts
- Pastors – Shepherd / Bishop
- Evangelists – Patriarchs
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth. [21:50]
Interesting here. Pastor Jeff brings up a belief called “Cessationism.” Isn’t it interesting that they some denominations would feel these gifts and ceased, yet the priesthood remained?
Cessationism is a doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy, and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age. The doctrine was developed in the reformation and is particularly associated with the Calvinists.
Cessationism versus continuationism – Wikipedia
As for the LDS faith, we do believe these gifts are signs of the true church. But we don’t believe in them the same way that a pentecostal would. They are known to flop on the ground filled with the Holy Ghost as well as speak in tongues.
The LDS faith believes that for someone to speak in tongues, there needs to be someone who can interpret the speech. Random incoherent babbling is not speaking in tongues. Oftentimes, we believe the gift of speaking in tongues is also the gift of learning a language rapidly. Speaking and understanding other languages. God’s house is a house of order.
The pastors brought up the First Great Awakening [1730-1755], the Second Great Awakening [1790–1840], and the Post Azusa Street Revival [1906-1915] while speculating where some of these beliefs of “speaking in tongues” came from. That they may have been on the mind of Joseph Smith. The problem is that they don’t believe that Joseph Smith is a prophet. If Joseph Smith was a prophet and all things were being restored, this would have had to take place. And it did. Regardless of what took place in the world around him.
Joseph Smith taught:
Joseph later warned the Saints that Satan could manipulate tongue-speaking and that the Lord would never reveal Church doctrine by this practice. He further clarified, “Tongues were given for the purpose of preaching among those whose language is not understood,” adding that anyone “that has the Holy Ghost can speak of the things of God in his own tongue, as well as to speak in another.”
Gift of Tongues (churchofjesuschrist.org)
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. [25:00]
There is a general acceptance here that there are bad translations. But, then they talk about confidence in the current translation as a whole. It is a agreeable that out of any historical records dating back centuries if not milenia, the bible has the most evidence. You can look at historical translations and see if there were changes.
It is brought up that there is the possibility that it is referred to transmitted rather than translated. Which meant how did it go from original to copy to copy to copy. Clearly, God informed Joseph Smith that plain and precious truths had been removed. and that this led to the great apostasy or the Priesthood Authority being removed from the earth.
Pastor Kyle, goes on to say that there is an embarrassingly rich amount of information that leads us to believe that we have a very faithful translation of New Testament texts. And does not feel if Joseph Smith had known this he would have said this. This is interesting because we have the Joseph Smith Translation of the bible. Joseph Smith was asked by God to go through and translate the bible. We have a record of all the changes he made to the text. At one point or another, those changes will be validated as truth or not.
This discounts the fact that God, through a prophet, can clarify his voice. This goes all the way back to whether or not there is a need for a living prophet.
Joseph, functioning in his office as seer, emended, revised, clarified, and organized. I believe this is what “translated correctly” means in the eighth article of faith—either correct as it came from the original writer or as revised by a seer.
Did Joseph Smith ‘Translate’ the Book of Mormon? « Meridian Magazine (latterdaysaintmag.com)
Pastor Kyle, does well explaining the history of the Doctrine and Covenants.
From there, this goes into a pretty interesting dialog about the bible being canonized and why. They also go into the idea of continuing revelation from God, but clearly, it is somewhat different that the LDS church sees continuing revelation. They also go on to explain why the Book of Mormon falls outside of mainstream Christianity. As well as how they feel continuing revelation is taking place within the protestant faith.
The “Sola Scriptura” that Pastor Jeff continually brings up stating that there is nothing more than the bible, really hits that “A bible, A bible” verse from the Book of Mormon on the head.
Sola scriptura (Latin for ‘by scripture alone’) is a Christian theological doctrine held by most Protestant Christian denominations, in particular the Lutheran and Reformed traditions, that posits the Bible as the sole infallible source of authority for Christian faith and practice.
Sola scriptura – Wikipedia
… A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.
2 Nephi 29 (churchofjesuschrist.org)
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. [33:45]
This goes back to #8. They agree… but only as it pertains to the bible.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (boy, each time I write that out, it seems long), believes that God has revealed through prophets, and will continue to reveal through prophets. We believe that we are receiving the word of God for our day through prophets and that we will continue to in the future. Not only that, we also believe that there will be additional books of scripture revealed. We believe that as God spoke, men wrote what he spoke. Those teachings and those histories will be revealed at some point.
One of which is the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. The Golden plates that Joseph Smith translated had a section that was sealed. Those sealed plates were to remain until some time in the future when God decided to reveal them.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory. [37:10]
I feel as though I periodically catch a chuckle, a look, an inflection that says I can’t believe they believe this stuff.
Working backward. Jesus will reign and the earth will receive its paradisiacal glory. That is about all the agreement there is.
Joseph Smith revealed that Zion will be built in Jackson County Missouri. That the Garden of Eden was near there. That Adam will return and hold a great council at Adam-ondi-ahman before the end. Christ will visit Mount Zion or the temple in the New Jerusalem before the end. Of course, they don’t believe any of these things because they don’t believe in Joseph Smith, and don’t believe that he is a prophet. Why should they believe those things?
But, it goes back once again to the need for a living prophet. With so many important things needing to take place in the end of times, why would he not have a prophet? Why would he only have the Bible? They had scriptures in the time of Christ. But God still had need to send John the Baptist. And God still had need to send Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ had need to call 12 disciples to teach. Jesus Christ had need to send them forth teaching. The disciples had need to write and correct the errors of the people. Yet we don’t need any of those things today?
Here is where they are completely wrong. The gathering of the 10 tribes are all literally all the tribes of Israel.
- Reuben (Lost his birthright)
- Simeon
- Levi
- Judah (The Jews are not lost and don’t need to be gathered)
- Issachar
- Zebulun
- Dan
- Naphtali
- Gad
- Asher
- Ephraim (of Joseph)
- Manasseh (of Joseph)
- Benjamin
What these pastors don’t know is that when the LDS members receive their patriarchal blessings their lineage is declared. If they are not of the House of Isreal, they are adopted into the House of Isreal.
There is a prophecy that the stick of Joseph and stick of Judah will come together and be one in thine hand. Referring to the Book of Mormon and the Bible coming together We know from the Book of Mormon that Lehi and his family were descendants of Joseph who was sold into Egypt.
Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Ezekiel 37 (churchofjesuschrist.org)
The topic was covered so generally, it is hard to say what they believe. But, as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there is a belief here there were promises unto Abraham and Israel that involve all the tribes of Isreal, not just Judah. And these promises are not going to be replaced by the Gentiles. In fact, we know from the Book of Mormon that they shift from the Jews to the Gentiles, then from the Gentiles to the Jews. In the end, the promise and the covenant is to Abraham and the House of Israel.
I think there is a lot of misunderstanding here, but it is like predicting the end of times. It is super important and relevant but arguing over it will do no good.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. [41:50]
They are both complementary to Joseph Smith because they know he has been to Liberty Jail. He is likely bitter over the experience, but he still stands up and says, let there be religious freedom. Then the reference to something called “soul competency” which I was not familiar with
Soul competency is a Christian theological perspective on the accountability of each person before God. According to the view, one’s family relationships, church membership, or ecclesiastical or religious authorities cannot affect the salvation of one’s soul from damnation.
Soul competency – Wikipedia
Interestingly, Pastor Jeff brought up that the LDS seem to tie their foundation to the framers of the constitution. That would be because of the Book of Mormon. We believe that this land is a land of promise. It was a land of promise to the people of Lehi, then it was a land of promise unto the Gentiles. Not only that it mentions freedom and liberty being up on the land. We have a very strong belief that the Founding Fathers were inspired. And that the Book of Mormon could only have come forth on this land because of the religious freedom established in this land.
7 Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.
2 Nephi 1 (churchofjesuschrist.org)
12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.
Ether 2 (churchofjesuschrist.org)
5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.
6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;
Doctrine and Covenants 98 (churchofjesuschrist.org)
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. [43:55]
Unanimous Yes.
17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Cæsar the things that are Cæsar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marvelled at him.
Mark 12 (churchofjesuschrist.org)
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. [45:13]
This was interesting… Pastor Kyle read it and stopped early. “We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men.” I didn’t realize it was shorter, then added to it.
8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
Philippians 4 (churchofjesuschrist.org)
And I like what they said… “if you don’t agree with this, there is a problem.”
SUMMARY
Overall, I don’t think they did poorly reviewing the Articles of Faith. However, it would have been nice to have had someone with knowledge about the faith involved in the dialogue to help them better understand the context. I have a feeling Pastor Kyle knows more. They both may know more and are both holding back knowing who the audience is. I don’t think either of them has a determination to fully know or understand the full context of each article.
Either way, I don’t think they shared anything malicious and they had a very civil conversation on the topic.