OK, here is my response to Pastor Jeff’s response. That sounds link of funny. Let me start by saying I really like Pastor Jeff. I also really enjoy how he breaks down and articulates he beliefs in comparison to LDS beliefs. He has done this enough now that he is really gaining a strong understanding of LDS theology and I think does well articulating the differences. Even though I will be somewhat critical of him, I really do love him and what he is doing. I just think he is wrong.
This video can be summarized with this statement: Jesus Christ saves, not Baptism. In pastor Jeffs words: “baptism is a command, bit does not save us.”
This is the true beauty of the gospel of Jesus Christ. That we have scripture and a living prophet to help us know and understand the word of God. That was are not cast about by the wind of every doctrine. We stand firm with understanding. The doctrines are clear and simple to understand. For example, the First Article of Faith: We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. It is truly a simple declaration of who and what the Godhead is, three distinctly different beings.
Now consider the topic at hand. The Fourth Article of Faith: We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. As members of the church, we know it is Jesus Christ that saves. We truly know that. However, we also know that Jesus Christ has commanded all to be baptized. It was so important that he was baptized himself. In 2 Nephi 31: 5 it says: And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water! When the resurrected Savior, Jesus Christ visited the Nephites he first asked them to touch his wounds to know it was him who died for the sins of the world. The next thing he did was give power to baptize. Then he declared in 3 Nephi 11:33-34 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God. And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
As latter-day saints we know that we must have Faith in Jesus Christ. He is the one who saves. We know that we may have our sins washed away by him through Repentance. He paid the price that we may be cleansed and be worthy to return to our Father in Heaven. We demonstrate our faith by entering the waters of Baptism. This ordinance is a necessary step to salvation. Yet, we must be baptized of water and the Spirit. The second half of baptism is the Gift of the Holy Ghost. When speaking to Nicodemus Jesus said: John 3:5-6 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. The prophet Joseph Smtih clarified by stating: “You might as well baptize a bag of sand as a man, if not done in view of the remission of sins and getting of the Holy Ghost. Baptism by water is but half a baptism, and is good for nothing without the other half—that is, the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
I’ve spent a lot of time explaining baptism. Here is what Pastor Jeff said. Baptism is one of the most frequent topics people ask him about. He also realizes from that and visiting our temples that Baptism is central to our beliefs.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Pastor Jeff: “Just because we don’t believe baptism saves us, doesn’t mean that protestant evangelicals look at baptism as optional.” Then pastor Jeff goes on to explain how they use scriptures to balance scriptures and there are plenty of other scriptures that explain why baptism is optional, that “there is nothing we do or can do that will bring about salvation”.
[NIV] Titus 3:5 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
[KJV] Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
I have to put those side by side. Pastor Jeff always quotes out of the {NIV] The New International Version which is a modern English translation of the bible. In this verse in Titus, Pastor Jeff implies that the act of Jesus being baptized is part of what cleansed us. Again, nothing we can do. It was all done by Jesus.
[4:01]
John 3:3-5 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
The question was again making the statement that Pastor Jeff said baptism was not optional, but also not necessary. As pastor Jeff goes on to explain, he says it may or may not be talking about baptism. There is a belief that this scripture is referring to a general cleansing. Being born again means being cleansed by his blood. He goes on to subtly slam someone that interviewed him for misquoting scripture. Then explains that “Nowhere in the bible does it say, you need to repent, then be baptized in order to enter the kingdom of God.” After listening to that explanation, I can’t help but pause and thank God for a living prophet.
The next question stated that if baptism does not save, Mark 16:16 needs some explaining. This ties into “The Great Commission” mentioned in Matthew 28 shared above.
[8:16]
[NIV] Mark 16:15-16 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
[KJV] Mark 16:15-16 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Pastor Jeff notes that at face value you might say, look its right there. But if you compare it to other things in the scriptures that state it is only Jesus’ works that save. Notice is says, whoever does not “believe” will be condemned, not whoever does not get baptized.
It’s kind of funny, right after saying this, he goes on to explain how Jesus saves. Putting all our belief into him and what he did will save us. Not putting all our belief into him and what he has done will condemn us. No Latter-Day Saint is disputing that. Then he says, “we see baptism as a marker, or a seal done in obedience for those who say that they have belief and they’ve been born again.” we would agree with most of that. Baptism is a sign of a believer. They do it as a marker or a sign that they believe. But they also do it for a “remission” of their sins. It is an ordnance of washing and cleansing us. And this is where the great divide is. Pastor Jeff does not appear to see the act of baptism as a remission of sins. He does not see it as washing and cleansing us of our sins. Why? Because the person doing it has already been saved and did not need the act for the remission of their sins. That was already done by Jesus through what he did. In short, our acts do not save us. Jesus does. Then again, that contradicts Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Honestly, this is another one of those twists and turns, that makes me grateful for the Book of Mormon and a living prophet.
He goes on to explain that baptism was something familiar and universal sign of the believers of that time. A way to profess they were following him. It was tied to cleansing and becoming a citizen of the kingdom of God. He then explains it would be sign especially when the different New Testament churches each practiced the gospel differently.
[10:24]
[NIV] Ephesians 4:5-6 One Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
[KJV] Ephesians 4:5-6 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
He compares it to having a passport. It does not matter which country you come from, you have a valid passport. It doesn’t matter who stamped it…. For us that does matter. It must be stamped by one who has authority.
[12:02]
[NIV] 1 Peter 3:20-22 To those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
[KJV] 1 Peter 3:20-22 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
He explains that this scripture states you are not cleansing sin (dirt) from the body but rather it is a pledge or witness towards God. These scriptures are followed by an explanation that baptism does not save. Examples of people being saved without baptism. Then examples of “regeneration” which I believe he is explaining is actually being filled with the Holy Ghost. I can see how not having further light and knowledge would lead him to validate all his arguments with this scripture. But just as he is able to validate his argument that baptism is not necessary, these scriptures also validate that baptism is truly necessary. And it makes me wonder why this is even an argument.
[14:51]
[NIV] 1 Corinthians 15:29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?
[KJV] 1 Corinthians 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Baptism for the dead does not take place in mainstream Christianity. It is unique to Latter-Day Saints. He argues the church in Corinthia had an exaggeration or over emphasis on the value of baptism. There were communities around the church that practiced a pagan version of baptism for the dead. OK, let’s stop right here. I think this is a little dig at the LDS faith, but in a very polite manner. But he is basically inferring that the practice is tied to pagan beliefs.
Personally, I would expect that they performed baptism before the baptism of Jesus Christ. In the Pearl of Great Price in Moses 6:64-65 And it came to pass, when the Lord had spoken with Adam, our father, that Adam cried unto the Lord, and he was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the water, and was brought forth out of the water. And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man. And thus baptism was a known practice since the beginning of the world. It is commonly understood among Latter-day Saints that Satan takes the teachings of God and mingles them with the teachings of men. He mimics or counterfeits the teachings of God. Thereby altering the true nature and power of the things of God. This is one way a Pagon religion could end up baptizing for the dead.
This excerpt from Wikipedia on the subject of Baptism for the Dead is interesting: The HarperCollins Study Bible acknowledges the plain reading of the text that Paul was literally speaking about baptisms being performed on behalf of the deceased, and writes, “why the Corinthians practiced baptism on behalf of the dead is unknown; see also 2 Macc 12.44-45.”[32] The 2 Maccabees passage speaks about the similar practice of performing sacrifices for the dead among Intertestamental Jews. The evangelical Tyndale Bible Dictionary, instead, concludes that Paul probably did not approve the practice of baptism for the dead. He refers to its practitioners as “they”, not as “you” (the Corinthian Christians to whom he wrote).[33] The note in the Catholic New American Bible is more cautious: “Baptized for the dead: this practice is not further explained here, nor is it necessarily mentioned with approval, but Paul cites it as something in their experience that attests in one more way to belief in the resurrection.”[34] In this, it stays close to what Tertullian wrote in the year 207 or 208, when he said that Paul’s only aim in alluding to the practice of baptism for the dead, “whatever it may have been”, was “that he might all the more firmly insist upon the resurrection of the body, in proportion as they who were vainly baptized for the dead resorted to the practice from their belief of such a resurrection.”[35]
It seems to contradict what Pastor Jeff said about the knowledge of baptisms for the dead. It does make the assumption that Paul did not agree with the practice, but it comes across as an assumption. Further they quote the Maccabees from the Apocrypha which says in 2 Macc 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. Which makes the argument for baptism for the dead as Christ atoned for the dead that they might be delivered. How can they be delivered from sin without baptism?
Pastor Jeff backs up his statement that there was an over emphasis on baptism because the church could not agree on the baptism people received. Again, thank goodness for the Book of Mormon and a living prophet that would clarify baptism. The Book of Mormon makes a similar argument about the baptizing of children. It isn’t saying baptism is bad because some think children should be baptized, but rather it is admonishment and straightening the way. Jesus Christ in the Book of Mormon further solidified the importance of baptism with what he taught the people in 3 Nephi 11.
He uses 1 Corinthians 1:11-:18 “for Christ did not send me to baptize” to once again justify that baptism is not important. It is the gospel of Jesus Christ that saves.
In short, I appreciate Pastor Jeff taking the time to explain his point of view. I don’t agree with his interpretation but, that is OK. The few subtle digs at the church don’t hurt the church or its mission. But they could put some doubt into the minds of a few. In the end, I think I understand much better why evangelicals believe the way they do. And, once again Pastor Jeff increases my faith in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.
Image by Walter Rane used without permission.